Wednesday, December 6, 2017

Discussion with a counter-missionary

EVERY ONCE IN AWHILE, a counter-missionary will pose some challenges we can't resist. The following conversation was borrowed from the wall of Jason N Lyn, where tons of Yeshua-bashing takes place:

MIRIAM WROTE: Jason was challenging a specific verse in Luke 24, and that is not at all addressed in your response. Where - chapter and verse - is there any reference in the Tanach about the Messiah rising from the dead on the third day, or repentance in his name being preached?

The bigger question is why all his apostles and disciples DIDN'T KNOW this, especially when the gospels says that HE TOLD THEM before his death - just go back a few chapters in Luke 19:33, where they were told, "they [the Gentiles] will scourge him and kill him, and on the third day he will rise."

Let's assume you were told that, back then, and you heard him say that with your own ears. Wouldn't you burn that into your memory so that you knew, and were confident, at the time of his death, that he was going to be resurrected either on the third day or after 3 days and 3 nights (take your pick)? How completely difficult is that to understand or remember when you believe that Jesus is the Messianic King? Even after being told by eye-witnesses that of Jesus was raised from the dead and seen, his 11 apostles chalked it up to OLD WIVES' TALES - "but these words seemed to them an idle tale, and they did not believe them." (Luke 24:11).

My approach, as you probably know, is that the books in the Christian bible are NOT inspired scripture; they have some element of truth mixed in with an unknown amount of fiction. So, for me, Jesus is "off the hook" for anything he is quoted as having said - because he was dead, likely for decades, before the unknown writers of the gospels took up their pens to write contradicting things in his name from their memories.

The "New Testament" needs to be exposed as containing falsehood so that gullible Jews don't, for example, test their faith by drinking poison (Mark 16:18), and so they don't run to a church to get baptized in an effort to stay out of hell. The gospels have a number of threats that say, if you don't believe, you'll be damned, and these threats are lies. There is no commandment to believe that any man is the Messiah when the messianic prophesies remain to be fulfilled.

As Jason said, we gotta watch out for those phony "The bridge is safe" signs. It isn't. It's a slippery slope to idol worship, apostasy, and assimilation.

CARMEN WELKER RESPONDS:

MIRIAM ASKED: “Where - chapter and verse - is there any reference in the Tanach about the Messiah rising from the dead on the third day, or repentance in his name being preached?”

MY RESPONSE: In other words, Miriam is saying: “Show me chapter and verse or I won’t believe it!” The very question presupposes that the answers are elucidated in the Tanakh; yet a complete reading and study of the Tanakh reveals that much of it is not clear at all - about quite a lot!

The counter-missionary crowd is simply abusing the two verses in Luke 24, specifically verses 46 and 47, to claim that “Jesus does not know the Bible” (Jason’s words); when in fact, it is they who clearly don’t know Scripture - or the Messiah! They’ve failed to see that earlier Luke 24:25-27 explains that the proper evidence was revealed to those on the road to Emmaus – it simply was not revealed to “us”!

Consequently no one knows which verses from the Tanakh Yeshua addressed revealing that he would rise from the dead on the third day and that repentance in His name would be preached! Does that mean the verses don’t exist? Of course not. So, what we have to do is turn to the Tanakh with unbiased eyes and ears to see what it reveals. Unfortunately, any two people can read the Tanakh and come away with a divergent understanding. (This is why it took Yeshua to reveal the meaning to those on the road in Luke 24:27!)

Fact is, there are hundreds of messianic prophecies in the Tanakh (Micah 5:2, 6; Zechariah 9:9-10 to cite a couple), and YHWH Himself declared He would be Israel’s salvation (many verses, including Exodus 15:2, Isaiah 45:17, 46:13, etc.); and while some understand “Yeshua” in “salvation”, others don’t see it. So, sadly, there is little agreement on which verses in the Tanakh are Messianic and which are not.

But as to the question, “is there a verse in the Tanakh which suggests the Messiah would die and rise on the 3rd day?” There is, but again, it is up to the reader to see it. Take Hosea 6:1-3:

6:1 “Come, and let us return unto the LORD; for He hath torn, and He will heal us, He hath smitten, and He will bind us up. 2 After two days will He revive us, on the third day He will raise us up, that we may live in His presence. 3 And let us know, eagerly strive to know the LORD, His going forth is sure as the morning; and He shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter rain that watereth the earth.”

Does this specifically mention Yeshua? No. Does it address that there will be a death with a resurrection on the 3rd day? Yes. Does it ask that YHWH will come to them? Yes. (Since YHWH can’t come to them in His form because no one can look upon Him and live (Exodus 33:20), we realize that YHWH must be “seen” in another form.) It is not that hard to see the Messiah in these verses!

See also Isaiah 53:3-5 and Psalm 16:8-10 which include the prophecy of death and resurrection of the Messiah. And for what it’s worth, the author of Acts (accepted as Luke) said in Acts 17:2-3 that Paul went into Synagogues teaching from the Tanakh how the Messiah had to suffer, die and rise again. But here again, we aren’t told which scriptures Paul would have used from the Tanakh prophecies.

And so, what about “repentance in His name being preached?” Again, WE aren’t TOLD which verses Yeshua explained, but there are many in the Tanakh linking YHWH and Yeshua (as savior and mashiyach) of YHWH. Here are a few which can be understood when one realizes how YHWH can be savior:

Hosea 13:4 “Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt; and thou knowest no God but Me, and beside Me there is no saviour (moshia).”

Isaiah 43:11 “I, even I, am the LORD; and beside Me there is no saviour (moshia).”

And here are two sources identifying the Messiah as the Savior: Micah 5:2 & 6; Zechariah 9:9-10.

And in Isaiah 53:1-12 (which, for brevity, I won’t reproduce here), Isaiah reveals details of the Moshia. (Yes, I know the counter-missionaries poo-poo these verses and explain them away but that does not negate what the verses say.)

And Micah 6:6-8 reflects repentance (without using the word) to walk righteously with YHWH.

As Yeshua explained in Luke 24:25, people were foolish and did not comprehend the meaning in the words of the prophets. It should not be surprising that it takes the lifting of blinders for the message to become clear how the Tanakh reveals the Messiah.

By the verses cited here alone, one can conclude that 1) YHWH is the savior, 2) Yeshua is the mechanism, and therefore YHWH and Yeshua are “one”. And wouldn’t you know it, Yeshua actually said that (John 10:30)! When one repents in the name of Yeshua, then they are repenting in the name of YHWH. (Can one repent in the name of YHWH and not Yeshua? Certainly. But since everyone must be redeemed for their individual salvation, and Yeshua is the redeemer, why give up your redemption and only seek forgiveness through repentance?

Repentance, i.e., returning to a state of righteousness through remorse and being forgiven for innocent acts against Torah; and Salvation, i.e., the continual possession of an everlasting life with YHWH through redemption, are two different things. Nowhere in the Tanakh do we find eternal salvation obtained only upon turning from one's sinful behavior through repentance. Eternal salvation in the Tanakh was obtained solely upon turning to YHWH in faith and being redeemed by a blood sacrifice.)

As to the posed “bigger question”, i.e., “why all his apostles and disciples DIDN'T KNOW this, especially when the gospels says that HE TOLD THEM before his death - just go back a few chapters in Luke 19:33 [sic], where they were told, ‘they [the Gentiles] will scourge him and kill him, and on the third day he will rise.’

(The intended verse is Luke 18:33.) This person is complaining that the disciples are portrayed as having not known the Messiah would be killed and rise despite being told, because a later verse (Luke 24:11) describes the disciples as scoffing at the events. Yet Luke 18 goes on to say in the very next verse: “However, they understood none of this; its meaning had been hidden from them, and they had no idea what he was talking about.” (Curious isn’t it. It’s the same situation still today! Meaning remains hidden.)

So: scripture TELLS us that understanding was being hidden from them. Today someone dares complain that the disciples are portrayed later as not knowing? Come on! This is not actually the “bigger question” at all! This is ignorance! Today, the question only surfaces as a result of not understanding scriptures.

We are told several times in the Gospels that the disciples were having difficulty accepting and comprehending what Yeshua was telling them about who He was and what had to happen. (Again, the same situation remains today!) And this person apparently fails to realize that Yeshua later rebuked the disciples for their unbelief and hardness of heart (Mark 16:14).

As to the rest of the comments, they merit no response as they are simply the ramblings of misguided personal opinion from someone who has already decided, and will likely not change....

3 comments:

  1. I would suggest that everybody do a thorough word study on all of the "suffering servant" passages in Isaiah. Then compare and contrast the various examples put forth. We see in Isaiah 41:8-12 that Israel is clearly the servant in context. In Isaiah 42: 1-4 we see a prophecy that is quoted in Matthew 12:17-23. Read and see if you think that the nation of Israel has fulfilled this "servant" prophecy. Then read Isaiah 43:10. Here we see that YHWH will provide a servant to help Israel. Israel here is not the servant, but the served. Isaiah 49:3-7 shows in verse 3 that Israel was indeed created to be a servant, but in Isaiah 43:5-8 Isaiah the prophet was a servant sent to restore Israel to YHWH. In Acts 13:47 we see that Israel still has the responsibility to be a light to the nations. Israel always was to be a servant to model the Torah and represent YHWH to the rest of the world. Isaiah 50:4-8 demonstrates the dedication and self sacrifice the suffering servant should be willing to endure. Once we are familiar with the suffering servant passages we should be able to discern the grammar of Isaiah 52-53. We should be able to distinguish between the subject and the object of the sentences. We should be able to distinguish "he" and "we" and "they" and "our". For example, if the suffering servant here is Israel, then who are those referenced as "us". TNK Isaiah 53:6 We all went astray like sheep, Each going his own way; And the LORD visited upon him The guilt of all of us." Is the "him" Israel, or is the "us" Israel? Just study these verses word by word. To me it is a broad generalization to say that Israel is the only "suffering servant" in all passages. We see that Israel was indeed called to be a suffering servant. We also see that Israel needed suffering servants in the form of prophets sent to restore them. Then we see that we, all of us have fallen short and missed the mark. We, all of us, need a redeemer. Who is that savior? I don't think that the nation of Israel is its own savior.

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  2. These are the same people who don't believe that Yeshua is the Messiah during his first coming and crucified him. But He will come back one more time to redeem what belongs to Him and no one will crucify Him that time because He will come as the King of Kings.
    Shalom Sister Shali.

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  3. Amein a thousand times, y'all!!!

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