There is a list of the "Messianic Prophecies
in scripture", commonly found on the Internet, containing a number of some 365
of said prophecies. Years ago, this
list ended up in one of the hundreds of articles on The Refiner's Fire
and was assumed "authoritative".
It turns out that The Refiner's Fire was victim to
this common list of unknown origin (shame on us) as we did not review each and
every listed "prophecy" for validity.
Well, Australian Internet radio host Jono Vandor at
"truth2u.org" along with a Canadian rabbi, Michael Skobac, have for
weeks now been "picking apart" this “list” on their Internet radio
show as "disingenuous and misguided" - (my words not theirs).
Truth is, when we evaluated the list, we did
find there were some problems with it!
Some of the "prophecies" were found to be "weak", at
best (again, my words) and mistaken or misidentified at worst (meaning
only that the scripture citation was simply erred or not understood). So, having had our
hind-ends seriously lashed by these two “learned men”, we at The Refiner’s Fire
made a concerted effort to review and revise the list!
This review took considerable time - a couple of weeks or
more - as it was a rather intensive effort - and resulted in what ended up to be a list,
reduced in number, inclusive of about 300 items rather than the original 365.
(The original number, 365, held no special significance, so it was not our mission
to either increase or decrease the number.) The main reason for the reduction in the
number was certainly not withheld, and we openly explained that some of the
prophecies seemed to be "duplicates", equating the same Tanach
scripture to one or more New Testament citations, and it did not seem right to
"count" them more than once.
We stated this fact without obscuration! Additionally, we decided that not all the
citations could be clearly described as "prophecies", so we chose to
describe them as "connections" (my word - never imagining that Jono and his
scholarly guest, Rabbi Skobac would enjoy admonishing the use of that word! )
Some of the things they said were downright pernicious, as
it was clear in their dialogue, dripping with sarcasm, that they view us as
illiterate or mindless bozos because we “believe” in Y’shua. I mean, we are talking about people who accept
completely “by faith” alone that God created the world in 7 days, and that
people in biblical times lived to be nearly a thousand years old, and that God flooded
the entire world except for Noah and his family…(no PROOF, but hey, they
believe it!) And they believe that God
supernaturally kept Israel alive for 40 years by providing manna, and Moshe
wrote the Torah (never mind that Moshe died before the end of Deuteronomy, and
yet somehow, the Torah was magically finished!) And they simply accept that
the Hebrews in the wilderness saw a pillar of cloud by day and a pillar of fire
by night; and that Moshe’s face was so bright when he descended the mountain
where he somehow received two tablets of
stone with ten commandments written by the “finger of God”! But for US to
“believe” the promised Messiah is found in Y’shua without “evidence”? Well, THAT is just blasphemy and STUPID,
isn’t it?
Regardless, we "republished" the new,
reduced/refined list on The Refiner’s Fire, this time scripture citation
inclusive; and, when needed, even provided an explanation about the citation so as
provide details which may not be obvious from the scripture alone.
Well, Jono and Skobac were apparently delighted with the
reduction in the number of prophecies, declaring the new list as the "Revised
Standard Version" (the joke of which is not lost on us!) It was a lot fewer for them to pick apart
which, of course, leaves more time to devote to their “cross-talk funtime”
trashing of ALL things “New Testament” and those who are dumb enough to
“believe”….
The new list – judging by the mocking tones and allegations
of these Internet scholars - clearly did not provide any improvement over the old
(is this reference lost on you?) It apparently
only served to bring NEW charges against us!
Our new list, while recognizing up front that a particular item may not
be "clear" as a "prophecy" and thus may be seen (as we
tried to indicate by the careful choice of the appropriate English word) more
as a "connection" to the Messiah, was instead made out by these
on-air experts to be an "apothenia"! Ouch!
An "apothenia", as Jono quoted on-air (apparently
verbatim directly from Wikipedia), is "the experience of seeing patterns
or connections in random or meaningless data." Jono's example, of
"apothneia" was this: "You know, Michael, when people
see...they look at clouds, and they go 'Oh that looks like a butterfly, or that looks like a face, or
that looks like whatever'..." to which rabbi Skobac interjects: "Like
a Rorschach test" – and Jono quickly agreed, and he then went on to
compare the prophecies to "seeing the face of Jesus in your toast". OUCH! Thus,
the entire list of Messianic prophecies and/or "connections" (a word
which they clearly did not like) was reduced to the equivalent of seeing a
"rubber ducky in the clouds" (my paraphrase of their tomfoolery). Wow! It’s
actually somewhat surprising they did not accuse us of eisegesis! (Not at all sure why they chose the apothenia
route: "That cloud looks like..." analogy, rather than "apparently this
is what they WANT the scriptures to say" – the application of exegesis. Oh well, it's their radio show, and their time
to admonish the world, all those who believe Y’shua is the long-awaited
Messiah, well, they are all blithering, babbling idiots who live in a fantasy world!)
Nevertheless, whatever their charge, the ancient writings
Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, James, Peter, in the available manuscripts (Greek to the 3rd century CE and Aramaic to
the 2nd century CE) are apparently to be equated to a “child looking at the
clouds and seeing visions" – patterns only pointing back to the unnamed Messiah! Their entire dialogue is to deny that some of the
prophecies in the Tanach could have possibly already come true and are
documented in the Brit Chadashah! In
fact, Rabbi Skobac makes the point that “their belief” [in reference to weak-minded believers] first requires acceptance that Jesus is the Messiah, and
only then do they find “connections” to the Hebrew scriptures as proof. Therefore these ancient writings which became the Brit Chadashah can't have
possibly been fulfilled by a physical Messiah – because, after all, there is no evidence!
Indeed Skobac says:
“You can really start off with
anything and find connections to a document as large as the Hebrew
scriptures. But the real question is why
begin at that point, meaning if there aren’t clear prophecies that identify
Jesus as the Messiah, so why begin this entire enterprise of finding
connections to Him, meaning that I think that the critical question is: Do the
Hebrew scriptures contain clear evidence
that identify Jesus as the Messiah? Now
if that is the case, if it is clearly established that He is the Messiah, then
it would be worthwhile to say ‘Well, you see, now that we know this with
clarity, we can actually find, many, many connections and references and clouds
and types and, you know, hints and that would be a worthwhile project.”
(Er, yeah, good question, Rabbi Skobac! So, we are wondering why you are willing to
adhere to the Hebrew scriptures when they originated from the Masoretic Text,
which, in turn, originated from the Septuagint!
Doesn’t that make the Hebrew scriptures you hold so dear nothing but a “cloud”
too? You guys rely on translations of translations
yet have the audacity to sit there and make fun of the authority of the New
Testament and our belief in Y’shua?)
In other words, the fact that the many connections,
references and hints seen in the Messiah Yeshua as recorded in ancient
documents (called the Brit Chadashah, “New Testament”) which match the
connections, references and hints in the older Tanach, are simply not good
enough because we did not already know in advance who the Messiah would
be! This is like saying “Wait a minute,
this birth certificate recorded at the courthouse says Mr. and Mrs. Skobac are
the parents of Michael, but there is no clear evidence predating this piece of
paper that Mr. and Mrs. Skobac would birth a son and name him “Michael”
therefore there is no purpose in the exercise to argue that Michael is their
son.”
No, according to these two men, we can't have it that a
Messiah actually came and was written about in an ancient era 2000 years before
their time, who taught of the Kingdom of YHWH, and the need for our steadfast
obedience to the God of Abraham, and His offering of Himself for our salvation, so long as we obey! Can’t
have that! According to Skobac,
"our position" (on the Messiah) is that: "the person making the list begins
with their belief that Jesus was the Messiah, and beginning at that point they
then find connections..." (Thus "our position", being only a
"belief" is therefore entirely invalid!) Get it? A “belief” is entirely invalid!
Excuse me? I reiterate: Is not the ENTIRE TANACH
embraced and understood by traditional Judaism only "by belief"? Do you, Jono Vandor, Rabbi Skobac, or
anyone else have ONE SHRED of evidence that "YHWH created the
heavens and earth in 7 days", or that Abraham was asked to sacrifice
Isaac and trusted in YHWH, or that Moshe saw YHWH in a burning bush
and realized he was in His very presence, or that Jonah survived 3
days in the belly of a fish, or that Moshe lead thousands from Egypt
- EXCEPT FOR YOUR BELIEF? So just what is so wrong with
the 27 documents which became canonized as the Brit Chadashah describing
the birth, death and salvation of the long prophesied Messiah that is so
unbelievable from the 39 books of the Tanach that you absolutely refuse
to believe them?
Worse, this duo, Jono and Skobac, go on to denigrate
believers in the Messiah by challenging us that since "there aren't
clear prophecies that identify Jesus as the Messiah" then why begin
this "entire enterprise" (the exact words of Rabbi Skobac –
see above!) to make connections to Him?
Rabbi Skobac states: "Do the Hebrew scriptures contain clear
evidence that identify Jesus as the Messiah?" Excuse me? Again, you accept without question, without
the required (but missing) "clear evidence" that YHWH appeared AS MEN to Abraham at the
Oaks of Mamre (Genesis 18:1), but you can't accept that YHWH appeared AS
A MAN ~2000 years ago to show us the way to YHWH, which, after thousands of
years of animal sacrifices had not yet brought us together as a community, within
His guidance as Creator and live as He asks?
You find it so hard to accept that at the time, year, and
century described in the Brit Chadashah, that the prophesied Messiah actually
came, and that to prove it you must spend hours on end on the radio laughing
and giggling and denying, for example, even the concept of a “virgin birth”, and
the remainder of the list of prophecies and "connections" (my word,
remember), that reveal the undeniable, staggering, statistical evidence
that it may have actually happened? Must
we "pick apart" line by line, the list that many thousands of
scholars before us have identified, and argue instead, ad nauseum, that it did
not happen? Do you not comprehend the
meaning of the word "faith"? Again, is it not by faith that you
believe ANY of the “Hebrew scriptures” (a term Rabbi Skobac loves to use)?
Really? Jono and
Rabbi Skobac - Must you be so
blind? I won’t apologize for my use of
the word “connections” to describe some of the items in our list, rather than
retaining the stronger word “prophecy” as originally applied to all of the
list. But I chose that word only because
I recognize that there are some valid arguments that one person’s
interpretation of a “prophecy” might not be accepted by another’s
interpretation and thus lead to valid differences of opinion. But I assure you that I was not “making
connections” as if watching shapes in clouds or using “meaningless data” to
draw conclusions. If I were to rely only
on meaningless data, I’d continue listening to truth2u.org radio.
In closing, since you allowing your listeners to post
sarcastic remarks attacking our belief as well as our characters, let us
point out:
Nowhere are you told in the
Hebrew scriptures it is permissible to mock or attack PEOPLE or to poke fun at
their supposed “lack of intellect” – which is what you condone!
Not in Torah, not in Talmud!
Here, in case you are not aware of it, from the “Code of the Jewish Law”, (the Shulchan Aruch),
http://books.google.com/books?id=B83c7pHQuqQC&pg=PA138&lpg=PA138&dq=shulchan+aruch,+do+not+mock&source=bl&ots=qPo2OOFZEX&sig=91R1HAlAmWK9zlu5k8HIFrTAHV8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=dUllVLeCMo32yQSqzoDAAg&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAA#v=snippet&q=mock&f=false
, it clearly states it is permissible to mock idolatry, but NOT the person you perceive to
be an idolator….
Your scholarly mocking has not gone unnoticed.
