Sunday, August 16, 2015

Anti-missionary comment: “If I ever get to meet Jesus and he asks me why I denied him..."


A Jewish anti-missionary wrote:

“If I ever get to meet Jesus and he asks me why I denied him, I'd probably ask him what he said. I would ask him if he really said, "Truly I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see that he Kingdom of God has come with power." (Mark 9:1).

And then I would say, "You were a devout Jew, hoping that in a matter of time, within your generation, you would be crowned as the Messiah. But, as you know, it was not to be. I also looked back 1900 years to see what had happened to those Jews who followed your name into the church, and ignored your teaching about the eternity of Torah. They all disappeared from the nation of Israel, assimilated fully with the gentiles, and became indistinguishable from them in belief and practice.

Also, as you know, no Jew has any obligation to accept any man as the messiah until he is proven and accepted by the nation of Israel. This conforms to the Torah's teaching, "when a prophet speaks in the name of HaShem, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word which HaShem has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you need not be afraid of him." (Duet. [sic]18:22).

Response:

Let's address your statements one-by-one:

YOU WROTE:  I would ask him if he really said, "Truly I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see that he Kingdom of God has come with power." (Mark 9:1).

OUR RESPONSE:  You'll surely get your wish one day!  Y’shua will then calmly explain to you all the things your human mind refused to see.  For instance, Luke 9:27, Matthew 16:28 and Mark 9:1 all say, "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God." Who was standing there?  A crowd!  See Mark 8:34.  So Y'shua was literally saying that some of all who were present would not taste death till they had seen the kingdom of God!

In each Book - Luke, Matthew, and Mark - they all record the event immediately after this promise from Y’shua!  It is the transfiguration.  Rather than interpreting Y’shua’s promise as referring to His coming to establish His kingdom on earth in the future, the context reveals He was referring to the transfiguration. This meant that the three disciples (i.e. "some who are standing here") would see Messiah as He really was—the King of heaven—which occurred in the transfiguration.

The “transfiguration” refers to the event described in the cited passages when Y’shua took Peter, James, and John to the top of the mountain, where He met with Moshe and Eliyahu—representing Torah and the Prophets —and spoke with them. The disciples saw Y’shua in all His glory and splendor, talking with a glorified Moshe and Eliyahu. The disciples were dumbstruck at the sight and “fell on their faces” (Matthew 17:6). This is a glimpse of what will occur in the Kingdom. Y'shua's prophecy was fulfilled only only 8 days later!

YOU WROTE:   And then I would say, "You were a devout Jew, hoping that in a matter of time, within your generation, you would be crowned as the Messiah. But, as you know, it was not to be.

OUR RESPONSE:  Is this from Matthew 24:34?  Here are a few renderings of this verse:

34 Yes! I tell you that this people will certainly not pass away before all these things happen. (CJB)

34  Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. (ASV)

34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place
. (ESV)

And the AENT says:

34 Truly I say to you, that this tribe will not pass until all these things happen.

Note that interpretation depends entirely on understanding the Messiah's words!  Interpretation of this verse depends entirely on understanding WHOM the Messiah was talking about. Was He talking about the current generation, or was He talking about all people - all YHWH's people?  Good grief!  He says in the next two verses that even HE does not know when the end will be and He returns to be crowned Messiah!  So very clearly we know he was NOT talking about the current generation.

So if you did get the chance to ignorantly ask the Messiah this question, we rather suspect his answer to you would be to quote Deuteronomy 32:6.

YOU WROTE:  I also looked back 1900 years to see what had happened to those Jews who followed your name into the church, and ignored your teaching about the eternity of Torah. They all disappeared from the nation of Israel, assimilated fully with the gentiles, and became indistinguishable from them in belief and practice.

YESHUA MIGHT RESPOND:  "My lost friend, why did you look back only 1900 years? Jews have been ignoring My teaching of Torah for much longer than that!" 

YOU WROTE:  Also, as you know, no Jew has any obligation to accept any man as the messiah until he is proven and accepted by the nation of Israel. This conforms to the Torah's teaching, "when a prophet speaks in the name of HaShem, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word which HaShem has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you need not be afraid of him." (Duet. [sic]18:22). 

AND YESHUA MIGHT RESPOND something like this: "My lost friend, when does a prediction have to come true?  In your day so you see it with your own eyes?  Need I point out the prophecies in Isaiah and Ezekiel which have yet to come to pass?  But you are apparently not complaining that the Tanakh records the word of false prophets - and according to you, Isaiah and Ezekiel are false prophets because their prophecies have not come true. You cited Deuteronomy to ME!" 

As to "no Jew has any obligation to accept any man as the messiah until he is proven and accepted by the nation of Israel", that's quite an absolute statement! Unfortunately, you can't back it up!  The "nation of Israel",  we guarantee, can't unify on what qualifications will "prove" the Messiah and therefore lead to His acceptance!  There is not a single verse in the Hebrew scriptures which specifically identifies the Messiah or what he will do. 

Every verse regarded as messianic is subject to interpretation.  Many rabbis think Isaiah 53 is messianic, while many rabbis think it is about Israel.   Who is right?  Is Isaiah 11 messianic?  Some rabbis say yes, while some say no.  So unless you have a list of "no kidding" scriptures which all of Israel will agree can be used to prove the Messiah and accept Him, don't make this ridiculous statement in your attempt to deny Yeshua.

5 comments:

  1. I think that the Jews were actually asked to not accept Jesus:

    irst, as per the New Testament, “God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood”

    As per the Law (Torah), sacrifices must be made in a certain manner to be acceptable to G-d. For example, Leviticus 17:4 says “instead of bringing it to the entrance to the tent of meeting to present it as an offering to the LORD in front of the tabernacle of the LORD–that person shall be considered guilty of bloodshed; they have shed blood and must be cut off from their people.”

    As per the New Testament, Jesus suffered outside the camp (Hebrews 13:2). As per Lev 17:4 anybody that offers a sacrifice outside the camp shall be put to death, thus it was not a valid sacrifice.

    Secondly and more importantly, the Children of Israel were mandate not to worship other gods. As per Philippians 2:10, we should worship Jesus. But the Torah warns against worshipping other gods than YVHV (The LORD)

    Deuteronomy 32:17 says:

    They sacrificed to false gods, which are not God– gods they had not known, gods that recently appeared, gods your ancestors did not fear.

    Deuteronomy 13:16 says:

    If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known,

    In the time of Jesus nobody worshipped him as god. For example, Peter could have asked his father if they worshipped Jesus and they would have said no. The penalty for worshipping Jesus then should have been death.

    Also, the Children of Israel were warned not to worship anything they have not seen at Mount Horeb (Sinai).

    Deuteronomy 4:

    You came near and stood at the foot of the mountain while it blazed with fire to the very heavens, with black clouds and deep darkness. 12 Then the Lord spoke to you out of the fire. You heard the sound of words but saw no form; there was only a voice.

    You saw no form of any kind the day the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, 16 so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman,… And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.

    The word Host (tsaba’) is the same word use when G-d describes himself as the LORD of Host. It includes any physical and created being. Jesus, being a created man was not supposed to be worshipped as a god. Furthermore, the LORD explicitly said and that they did not see any form. Jesus has a form and so has a golden calf. Could G-d decided to embodied a golden calf? Could he have decided to embodied a man? The answer is yes and no. Yes because G-d could have done anything he wants, but NO because he said He would never do that! And G-d is not a man that he should lie. God is not a man and God is not a liar.

    With all those warnings that were given to them, the Jewish people were right not to accept Jesus as their messiah nor accepting him as a god (tri-une god) or anything else.

    Finally, if Jesus was anything lower than G-d, it would break the first commandment to worship him as the New Testament writer ask you to do: “You shall have no other gods before my face”

    https://therealmessianic.wordpress.com/2016/02/24/the-jewish-people-were-mandate-by-god-to-reject-jesus-as-god-or-the-messiah/

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    1. Thanks for your comments. The thing is Y’shua never asked to be worshiped. He knew he was sent as the SON to do everything His Father commanded, and his entire life was about proclaiming the Kingdom of YHWH:

      Luke 4: 43 "But he (Yeshua/Jesus) said, "I must preach the good news of the Kingdom of God to the other towns also, because that is why I was sent."

      Luke 8: 1. And it happened after these things that Y'shua was going around in the cities and in the villages and was preaching and declaring the Kingdom of Elohim.

      Acts 28: 23 "From morning till evening the Apostle Paul explained and declared the Kingdom of God and tried to convince people about Yeshua from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets."

      Acts 24: 14. But this indeed I (Paul) acknowledge, that in that same doctrine of which they speak, I do serve the Elohim of my fathers, believing all the things written in Torah and in the prophets.

      Continued in next block.

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    2. YHWH said HE would send a prophet who was to do everything He ordered him to do:

      Deuteronomy 18: 15 "ADONAI will raise up for you a prophet like me from among yourselves, from your own kinsmen. You are to pay attention to him, 16 just as when you were assembled at Horev and requested ADONAI your God, 'Don't let me hear the voice of ADONAI my God any more, or let me see this great fire ever again; if I do, I will die!' 17 On that occasion ADONAI said to me, 'They are right in what they are saying. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their kinsmen. I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I order him.

      Yeshua Himself said He came to do HIS FATHER's will; not His own!

      John 6: 35. Y'shua said to them, I am the Bread of Life. Whoever comes to me will not hunger. And whoever believes in me will not ever thirst. 36. But I have said to you that you have seen me, and you do not believe. 37. All who my Father has given to me will come, and whoever comes not to me I will cast outside! 38. For I came down from heaven,[1] not to do my will, but to do the will of Him who sent me. 39. And this is His will, that of Him who sent me, that all that He has given to me I do not lose even one. 40. For this is the will of my Father, that all who see the Son and believe in Him, will have life that is eternal. And I will raise him up on the last day. (Aramaic English New Testament)

      [1] As in the context of Miltha (the Word) or the "Manifestation" or the "Will of" YHWH coming down from heaven to do the Will of YHWH upon earth; his Spirit is of YHWH but his nephesh (soul) and body are human and temporal. This shows that Yeshua was NOT in charge; HIS FATHER WAS!

      Continued....

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    3. He tore down the fences of man's legalism. Neither He nor His Apostles ever advocated against Torah!

      John 12: 44. But Y'shua cried out and said, He who believes in me, it is not in me he does believe, but in Him who sent me. [1] 45. And he who sees me sees Him who sent me! 46. I have come as the light into this world that all who believe in me might not remain in the darkness! 47. And he who hears my words, yet does not keep them, I do not judge him, for I have not come to judge the world but to give life[2] to the world. 48. He who rejects me and does not receive my words, there is something that judges him. The word that I have spoken, it will judge him on the last day. 49. For I have not spoken from my soul, but the Father who sent me. He gave a Commandment to me what I should say and what I should speak. 50. And I know that His commands are eternal life. [3] Therefore, these things that I speak just as my Father told me, thus I speak.[4] (Aramaic English New Testament)

      [1] Y'shua does not bring a new Faith, but reveals the original Faith of YHWH the Father.
      [2] Y'shua proclaims that he came to give life, then he declares that His father's Commands are eternal life! The Father's "Commands" are instruction in righteousness; this is Torah which contains Commandments, Judgments, Testimony and Witness regarding the Kingdom of Elohim. Those who enter into Covenant with Mashiyach are entering into Covenant with his Father YHWH; therefore, it is evil - an outright lie - to teach that Torah is done away with and replaced by a new theology!

      [3] The Commands of YHWH bring eternal life. YHWH's "Commands" refers to all of His Commandments; these are one and the same as every Word that proceeds out of the Mouth of Elohim. These are not Commands only between Y'shua and His Father but they are universal for all souls who will enter into the Malchut Elohim.

      [4] Y'shua speaks the Word of YHWH, not his own words; therefore, he conveys the revelation of YHWH according to the Ruach haKodesh without the baggage of man's religious tradition. Religion has a propensity to reinvent or interpret the Word of YHWH to make it "acceptable" to man's standards; whereas Mashiyach came not to please men, but to honor and bring Glory to his Father.

      Yeshua was sent by the Father NOT to do His own will, but the Father's! So many seem to think He came to replace the Father and abolish Torah....Yet He came to restore man's relationship with YHWH and remind us to totally rely on YHWH for everything.

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  2. And remi4321, I think you might need a better "New Testament". My version of Philippians 2:9-11 says "Wherefore, also, Elohim has highly exalted him and given him a name which is more excellent than all names; that at the name of Y’shua every knee should bow, of (beings) in heaven and on earth and under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Master YHWH is Y’shua Mashiyach to the glory of Elohim his Father." (AENT) This is worshiping YHVH - Not "Jesus"!

    And Y'shua Himself taught that there is only ONE God! HE said: "And Y’shua said to him, “The first of all the Commandments is ‘Hear O Israel. Master YHWH our Elohim is one. And you should love Master YHWH your Elohim with all of your heart, and with all of your soul, and with all of your mind, and with all of your strength.’ This is the first Commandment." Does this sound like Y'shua is commanding that people worship Him as a "god"?

    And in John 17:3 He says: "Now this is life that is eternal, that they might know You, that You are the Elohim of Truth, and he alone whom You have sent, the Mashiyach Y’shua"! Underscore the phase "You are THE Elohim"!

    If He knew He was not asking people to worship Him why is it so hard for you to accept that? You apparently spend a lot of time finding reasons to deny the Messiah. I find that sad.

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